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Concealed carry (Read 4648 times)
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Concealed carry
03/03/11 at 08:44:40  
Heard on the radio yesterday that the Utah Senate passed a measure to allow concealed carry without a permit.  

I'm loving Utah more and more everyday.
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #1 - 03/03/11 at 09:30:45  
If they have I can not find it in the news or the legislatures website. I can find where they are changing the requirements for reciprocity and non-resident permits but not for us residents.

Do you have a link to a story about it?  
Which radio station was it on?

Inquiring minds want to know Smiley
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #2 - 03/03/11 at 10:54:21  
It was on 100.5 yesterday, I think that's the Richfield station.  I heard it three times yesterday.  They had a big discussion about it and that it was now going to the house for approval.
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #3 - 03/03/11 at 11:52:52  
Here's a link:

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #4 - 03/03/11 at 16:08:39  
ATVUtah wrote on 03/03/11 at 09:30:45:
If they have I can not find it in the news or the legislatures website. I can find where they are changing the requirements for reciprocity and non-resident permits but not for us residents.

Do you have a link to a story about it?  
Which radio station was it on?

Inquiring minds want to know Smiley


Can't say I didn't expect this.......Nevada discontinued it's reciprocity with Utah. I suspect it was argued that Utah doesn't require permit holders to actually shoot their all their guns to be carried to get a permit.

Although there is a change before Nevada legislature that once you have qualified with a semi-auto you can carry any semi-auto (like Utah) I expect it will fail and continue to be gun dependent due to Metro's lobbying. Simply put they don't like any carry permits even Nevada's and will cite the evils of  MACs  and .223 pistols. Not that will stop the gangs from carrying them without a permit and I doubt there's a single one listed on a carry permit in Nevada. Not too long ago they argued that Eric Scott (who they shot at Costo) was a dangerous felon because he carried a semi-auto that wasn't on his permit.

Go figure.....

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #5 - 03/03/11 at 16:42:33  
OK so the bill only passed a committee so far with a very small margin, by 1 vote ( 7 yea, 6 nay). Multimedia file viewing and clickable links are available for registered members only!!  You need to Login or Register!!


It's now into it's 2rd reading in the house and there has been no actual vote on the bill by the legislators yet.  

I found where Governor Herbert has indicated he is opposed to the legislation so even if it passes in the legislature there is a chance he may veto it. If he does there is not enough supporting legislators or votes necessary to override his veto.

Oh well a CCW permit is not hard to get now. We are one of the least restrictive state for them Smiley
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #6 - 03/03/11 at 20:48:46  
ATVUtah wrote on 03/03/11 at 16:42:33:
OK so the bill only passed a committee so far with a very small margin, by 1 vote ( 7 yea, 6 nay). Multimedia file viewing and clickable links are available for registered members only!!  You need to Login or Register!!


It's now into it's 2rd reading in the house and there has been no actual vote on the bill by the legislators yet.  

I found where Governor Herbert has indicated he is opposed to the legislation so even if it passes in the legislature there is a chance he may veto it. If he does there is not enough supporting legislators or votes necessary to override his veto.

Oh well a CCW permit is not hard to get now. We are one of the least restrictive state for them Smiley


Not to mention one with far reaching reciprocity...While I understand tit for tat I hope this doesn't pass. If it does I will have same concerns as when I travel to the evil nation of CA. Further as I read the open carry laws (and hope I misunderstand) it's now illegal to open carry a loaded  gun on your person in Utah?????

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #7 - 03/04/11 at 13:47:47  
Eli wrote on 03/03/11 at 20:48:46:
Further as I read the open carry laws (and hope I misunderstand) it's now illegal to open carry a loaded  gun on your person in Utah?????

Eli


Can you reference where you got the information saying it is illegal now to open carry in Utah?

This is news to me.  I do hope this a misunderstanding.
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #8 - 03/04/11 at 13:52:52  
Here is link to a short version of the law.
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #9 - 03/04/11 at 23:07:55  
Gusman wrote on 03/04/11 at 13:47:47:
Eli wrote on 03/03/11 at 20:48:46:
Further as I read the open carry laws (and hope I misunderstand) it's now illegal to open carry a loaded  gun on your person in Utah?????

Eli


Can you reference where you got the information saying it is illegal now to open carry in Utah?

This is news to me.  I do hope this a misunderstanding.


From above....

Summary
Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.

Is racking the slide two actions? Pulling it back and releasing? If so what two actions are required for a double action revolver? If you pulled the trigger and it fell on an empty camber requiring a second pull is that two actions?

Most states including CA consider a semi-auto to be "loaded" when a mag is inserted and revolvers loaded when any cartridge is in any of the cylinders.

IMHO most that have rack load or jump through other stupid loops are in serious trouble against somebody ready to fire.

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #10 - 03/05/11 at 09:41:56  
This is the text of the Utah code defining a loaded weapon.

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U.C.A. 76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.




So

1. Any firearm is loaded if there is a live round in the firing position (e.g. under the hammer).
2. Any handgun is also considered loaded if you can fire the gun by any single mechanical action (e.g. just pulling the trigger).

Examples of a loaded handgun:

a. Any revolver with a live round under the hammer.
b. Any autoloader with a live round chambered.
c. An uncocked, double-action revolver with no live round under the hammer, but a live round in the next chamber to rotate in.
d. A revolver with a live round under the hammer, but no live round in the next chamber to rotate in.

Examples of an unloaded handgun:

a. A double-action revolver with no live round under the hammer, and no live round in the next chamber to rotate in.
b. A single-action revolver with no live round under the hammer, but with a live round in the next chamber to rotate in.
c. An autoloader with no live round chambered, but with a fully charged magazine in the well.
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #11 - 03/05/11 at 13:17:43  
Did the radio news on 100.5 get it wrong about the senate adopting this bill?  I can't find whether they did or didn't.
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #12 - 03/05/11 at 14:15:51  
Colorado's house votes up permitless carry.


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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #13 - 03/05/11 at 14:22:57  
taccom wrote on 03/05/11 at 13:17:43:
Did the radio news on 100.5 get it wrong about the senate adopting this bill?  I can't find whether they did or didn't.  

Acording to the bill tracking it has not been to the senate yet. It is now in the house waiting to be brought to a vote.
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #14 - 03/05/11 at 14:23:07  
Wyoming's Governor just signed permitless carry into law following Alaska, Arizona and Vermont.


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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #15 - 03/05/11 at 14:37:45  
ATVUtah wrote on 03/05/11 at 14:22:57:
taccom wrote on 03/05/11 at 13:17:43:
Did the radio news on 100.5 get it wrong about the senate adopting this bill?  I can't find whether they did or didn't.  

Acording to the bill tracking it has not been to the senate yet. It is now in the house waiting to be brought to a vote.

All of our surrounding states either have it or are on the way to it...that is except NV.
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #16 - 03/06/11 at 14:10:00  
ATVUtah wrote on 03/05/11 at 09:41:56:
This is the text of the Utah code defining a loaded weapon.

Quote:
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U.C.A. 76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.




So

1. Any firearm is loaded if there is a live round in the firing position (e.g. under the hammer).
2. Any handgun is also considered loaded if you can fire the gun by any single mechanical action (e.g. just pulling the trigger).

Examples of a loaded handgun:

a. Any revolver with a live round under the hammer.
b. Any autoloader with a live round chambered.
c. An uncocked, double-action revolver with no live round under the hammer, but a live round in the next chamber to rotate in.
d. A revolver with a live round under the hammer, but no live round in the next chamber to rotate in.

Examples of an unloaded handgun:

a. A double-action revolver with no live round under the hammer, and no live round in the next chamber to rotate in.
b. A single-action revolver with no live round under the hammer, but with a live round in the next chamber to rotate in.
c. An autoloader with no live round chambered, but with a fully charged magazine in the well.

Interesting.  I own and have packed all 3, but under Utah law- my single action revolver will be the fastest to bring to bear.  OK by me.
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #17 - 03/23/11 at 15:14:58  
ATVUtah wrote on 03/03/11 at 16:42:33:
OK so the bill only passed a committee so far with a very small margin, by 1 vote ( 7 yea, 6 nay). Multimedia file viewing and clickable links are available for registered members only!!  You need to Login or Register!!


It's now into it's 2rd reading in the house and there has been no actual vote on the bill by the legislators yet.  

I found where Governor Herbert has indicated he is opposed to the legislation so even if it passes in the legislature there is a chance he may veto it. If he does there is not enough supporting legislators or votes necessary to override his veto.

Oh well a CCW permit is not hard to get now. We are one of the least restrictive state for them Smiley


Well it passed and was signedSad Guess I need to consider this for open carry in Utah. I agree a single action is would be a little faster but don't miss.

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #18 - 03/23/11 at 16:25:35  
Eli wrote on 03/23/11 at 15:14:58:
Well it passed and was signedSad Eli


?? Where did you see it passed and was signed?
As far as I can find the bill status says it was defeated by never actually bringing it to a vote in the House so it never even got introduced to the senate Sad

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #19 - 03/23/11 at 17:44:10  
Eli wrote on 03/03/11 at 16:08:39:
ATVUtah wrote on 03/03/11 at 09:30:45:
If they have I can not find it in the news or the legislatures website. I can find where they are changing the requirements for reciprocity and non-resident permits but not for us residents.

Do you have a link to a story about it?  
Which radio station was it on?

Inquiring minds want to know Smiley


Can't say I didn't expect this.......Nevada discontinued it's reciprocity with Utah. I suspect it was argued that Utah doesn't require permit holders to actually shoot their all their guns to be carried to get a permit.


Eli


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So if your home state doesn't have reciprocity with Utah and if your home state like the Republic of California doesn't issue you are now screwed in Utah. It was amended to require that you also have a permit (in your home state) as well as reciprocity.

I find nothing that says they can take away an issued out-state permit but they won't renew it.

Eli
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #20 - 03/23/11 at 20:04:58  
ATVUtah wrote on 03/03/11 at 16:42:33:
Oh well a CCW permit is not hard to get now. We are one of the least restrictive state for them Smiley


Can you explain this? Many Nevada instructors were also Utah instructors. So exactly what makes Utah less restrictive than Nevada and therefor not on the approved Nevada list? I already know that Nevada requires you to shoot any carried semi-auto (gun dependent) and Utah only requires you to shoot a semi-auto (type dependent).

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #21 - 03/23/11 at 21:58:25  
The biggest reason any of the states are dropping reciprocity for anything is the all mighty $$$  Why let residents from other states simply come to your state and run around on a permit they bought back home. Sell them a new one from your state and since they are non-resident you can charge more for the out of state permit. Also if State "A"  won't recognize states "B's" permit why should State "B" recognize State "A's" permit?. It's all about selling a permit and has nothing to do with who is qualified to own one, it's about the $$$. It doesn't matter what the permit is for the same principle applies and it seems like every state is slowly going that way with everything.

SB0036 was all about tightening the requirements for out of state instructors selling Utah permits, closing the reciprocity gaps as well as adding a higher fee for out of state permit buyers. It was about the $$$ and was aimed at nonresidents.

The original topic here was HB0129 which was to do away with the concealed firearm permit completely. They simply let it die without calling it to a vote, because the legislature didn't want to give up the $$$ from selling the permits to nonresidents and residents. If it had passed this entire discussion would be irrelevant as we would all have the right to carry without a permit, as was originally intended in the Constitution. But like everything else if there is a way to tax it they will and if not they will require you to buy a permit.

I'm just waiting for the day they require a permit to flush the can and then they will surely find a way to tax us based on volume.  

OH WAIT... They already have! Looked at your utility bill lately from the city  :'(  Water fees and taxes, sewer fees and associated taxes.
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #22 - 03/24/11 at 00:23:28  
Gary

Sorry I have to disagree.....Many many Nevada permit holders got their Utah permits at the same time and with the same instructor. Two permits not one. Utah got paid for theirs and it wasn't cheap. The instructors have long presented it as a package. Utah has always had great reciprocity. Nevada not so much. I'd bet you'd be surprised of the $$$ Utah is gonna lose because of this law. Looks like most Utah permit holders around here are going to Florida's. Again both getting paid but not Utah.

Nevada doesn't have an out state permit and isn't likely to anytime soon. Nevada's reciprocity law makes about as much sense as Utah's unloaded open carry law. It's not even decided by the Legislature. The Nevada Department of Public Safety decides once a year those states that have requirements substantially equal to or greater than Nevada. So unless the proposed Nevada law that a semi-auto is a semi-auto passes Utah isn't gonna be on the reciprocity list.

As to the no permit required...a great idea but I'm not surprised they let it die. That one I might agree is all about the $$$.

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #23 - 03/24/11 at 10:25:19  
Wait, I'm confused, are we really concerned about the people in NV who were stupid enough to re-elect Harry Reid.  The same state that enjoys 14% unemployment due to invasion of illegal aliens.  The same state where the construction markets are not projected to recover for 10 years according to Obama administration.  And they still voted to re-elect Reid.  I think Utah needs to start patroling the borders. lol!
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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #24 - 03/25/11 at 14:45:47  
taccom wrote on 03/24/11 at 10:25:19:
Wait, I'm confused, are we really concerned about the people in NV who were stupid enough to re-elect Harry Reid.  The same state that enjoys 14% unemployment due to invasion of illegal aliens.  The same state where the construction markets are not projected to recover for 10 years according to Obama administration.  And they still voted to re-elect Reid.  I think Utah needs to start patroling the borders. lol!


I know this might hard for you to understand taccom and if there aren't enough Nevada plates leaving money at Lizzy and Charlies then I'm sure Jim and Teri will let you take a walk through South 40 because I've certainly seen a crap load of Nevada plates there including mine. Business owners including RV park owners may not love Nevada or the people that live here but I haven't seen one that turned down my $$$$ and we got to get out of this BS in Nevada somewhere from time to time.

You almost had me when you asked who was gonna come get me on the trail but instead I'll be the guy waving my credit card as I pass you to go down the road a mile to those that appreciate it.  That's why your bosses ought to be concerned but perhaps more so with your attitude.

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #25 - 03/25/11 at 15:12:40  
With regards to Reid one might have assumed from my pro-gun statements I'm not exactly a fan. Could you please send us somebody else to chose from because OMG she's........back but then again we might not worry about affairs in office if she gets elected.

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #26 - 03/25/11 at 22:33:52  
Sorry to get so testy. After spending several day researching this....

I stand corrected. NV does issue out-state permits but you have to take a class in NV to get one.

Utah SB36 isn't as big deal as I thought it was. Utah has reciprocity with Florida. Florida has even better reciprocity than Utah. So if you want to carry in Utah and you live in state that doesn't have reciprocity like NV, you have to stop paying Utah anyway so you pay Florida instead. As an added bonus you get even more states including New Mexico in the deal.

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #27 - 03/26/11 at 12:16:00  
Nope wrong again....

A out-state Florida won't work. Oh to heck with it I hear AZ is nice in the summer time.

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Re: Concealed carry
Reply #28 - 03/26/11 at 12:48:01  
Eli wrote on 03/26/11 at 12:16:00:
Oh to heck with it I hear AZ is nice in the summer time.

Eli

Maybe if your a cactus or a lizzard  Rolling on floor laughing Rolling on floor laughing

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Eli
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I Love Utah!

Posts: 63
Las Vegas
Gender: male
Re: Concealed carry
Reply #29 - 03/26/11 at 20:53:01  
ATVUtah wrote on 03/26/11 at 12:48:01:
Eli wrote on 03/26/11 at 12:16:00:
Oh to heck with it I hear AZ is nice in the summer time.

Eli

Maybe if your a cactus or a lizzard  Rolling on floor laughing Rolling on floor laughing

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Thanks Gary

I thought I had and that's what made me think Florida was gonna work but one you link to is extremely similar but returns slightly different results. Looks like I need to read Utah's reciprocity law again.

I think I may appear at the NV public hearings but I'm not sure the semi-auto requirement is the only thing that Utah is "substantially" "less stringent" on and can't get an answer out of the Nevada Department of Public Safety.

Eli
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